BA.2.86 with two additional mutations is responsible for U.K. care home outbreak and it had an 86% Attack Rate! How could this impact the latest boosters?
BA.2.86 with two additional mutations is responsible for U.K. care home outbreak and it had an 86% Attack Rate! How could this impact the latest boosters?
10 cases of BA.2.86 in Denmark plus also found in wastewater in areas where the 10 cases didn't live, so it is already widespread and gaining ground in Denmark. This also shows that it is spreading globally. Still low numbers but definitely something to watch closely. Also, the 10 cases didn't have severe symptoms. That isn't the biggest concern, though. The biggest concern is immune evasion/suppression and its ability to persist, leading to long-term health issues.
With that said, a highly contagious and extremely immune evasive and suppressive variant can open the door to secondary infections and still hospitalize and kill a lot of people.
Conclusion of report:
"Given the widespread distribution of BA.2.86 globally and within Denmark in clinical samples and in wastewater, and the high number of mutations conferring immune-evasive potential, the possibility that BA.2.86 will outcompete currently dominating variants cannot be ruled out. Our very early clinical data suggest a clinical picture in line with the typical COVID-19 illness caused by previous variants. Data are presently very preliminary, and further global monitoring of BA.2.86 and other SARS-CoV-2 variants is highly warranted."
Denmark had a very high level of vaccination and with BA.2.86's level of immune evasion/suppression that isn't terribly surprising. Also you left out an important part. " with the latest vaccination 299–616 days before the BA.2.86 infection" The immunity from vaccination that long ago would have waned so vaccination status doesn't really have any bearing on the situation.
Thank you for sharing this link. I hadn't seen it yet.
Just to be clear, I meant that 'screaming into the void' comment as a complement. You are selflessly trying to alert people to the danger before them and many are skipping through the minefield blissfully unconcerned.
On to your response...I disagree with a statement you made in your response, but I'm just a dufus Anon so take this as you will. Your response "...so vaccination status doesn't really have any bearing on the situation."
NOT NECESSARILY.
I provide two references for your perusal...
Please see figure 2 in the attached study conducted by the Cleveland Clinic (figure 2 is coming up as page 21 in my browser)
Thank you for the comment and I appreciate your links and insights. Antibodies wane within 1 to 3 months so that isn't a factor here. CD8- T-cells wane within 7 to 10 months from vaccines. As far as 12 months from prior infections. Since the people infected were vaccinated over 300 to 600 days ago the antibodies and the CD8-Tcells induced by the vaccine wouldn't exist thus wouldnt have any bearing on a new infection. Is there something else I am overlooking here?
Possibly...in the second reference provided earlier, it reports on a class switch from IgG subtype 1 to IgG Subtype 4. IgG Subtype 4 is associated with tolerance. Is repeated vaccination inducing a 'tolerance' response in the immune system? This is not unlike the process of getting allergy shots so that you can train your immune system to ignore the allergen. Here is the reference again.
Here are some notes following the quotes from this paper that I thought stood out. I do think this has an impact on people when taking the same vaccine within to short a time period. (3-6 months).This is what happened to me so I have first hand experience to pull from. The worst part is that I knew I was taking it to soon but did it anyway .I think this is likely to occur when reinfected within that time frame or infected before or after vaccination within that time frame as well. With so many people getting infected but having very few if any symptoms, lesves millions of people in a vulnerable position when taking a booster, including the latest approved today. Unfortunately, reinfections are occurring within 3 to 6 months more often to more people than vaccinations over the past year or so.
Below are the quotes, followed by notes.
1. "showing that only mRNA vaccines induced detectable and prolonged IgG4 responses until day 270."
Note: The people in the care home were vaccinated much earlier than than the 270 days so even if this was the case earlier, the antibodies would have waned by the time of the BA.2.86 infections.
2. "long-term IgG4 responses were produced by the mRNA vaccines but not by the vaccines using adenoviruses [31]."
Note: most people didnt have repeated boosters of vaccines with adenoviruses.
3. It happened with HIV and Malaria repeated vaccination. "The HIV [113] and malaria trials [115], and studies with the Pertussis vaccine informed us that repeated vaccination was linked to reduced protection from infection, and this poor response was directly related to a higher IgG4 production. Moreover, it was suggested that this class switch might contribute to breakthrough infections due to impaired fc-mediated antiviral responses."
Note: Its not just mRNA vaccines, its likely the repeated vaccination or exposure to the pathogen within a 3 to 6 month time frame.
4. " The combined immune suppression (produced by SARS-CoV-2 infection [15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22] and further enhanced by vaccination [142,143,144]) could explain a plethora of autoimmune conditions, such as cancers, re-infections, and deaths temporally associated with both."
Note: The mechanisms exist with COVID alone but in people with preexisting autoimmune conditions, the vaccine could enhance it.
"It is conceivable that the excess deaths reported in several highly COVID-19-vaccinated countries may be explained, in part, by this combined immunosuppressive effect."
Note: where did this happen? None of the well vaccinated that maintained mitigation had this happen until the mitigation protections were lifted. It is primarily COVID infections and reinfections.
Hi TACT...Thanks for the thoughtful response...I do recall you mentioning an adverse event you personally experienced.
(I recall, at one point, it was recommended by health authorities that if 2 MONTHS had passed since your last dose, it was time for another)
This topic is so infuriatingly complex.
On a somewhat related topic...did you read that Covid antibodies appear to potentiate dengue virus type 3 through an ADE type mechanism. Good luck, Florida.
10 cases of BA.2.86 in Denmark plus also found in wastewater in areas where the 10 cases didn't live, so it is already widespread and gaining ground in Denmark. This also shows that it is spreading globally. Still low numbers but definitely something to watch closely. Also, the 10 cases didn't have severe symptoms. That isn't the biggest concern, though. The biggest concern is immune evasion/suppression and its ability to persist, leading to long-term health issues.
With that said, a highly contagious and extremely immune evasive and suppressive variant can open the door to secondary infections and still hospitalize and kill a lot of people.
Conclusion of report:
"Given the widespread distribution of BA.2.86 globally and within Denmark in clinical samples and in wastewater, and the high number of mutations conferring immune-evasive potential, the possibility that BA.2.86 will outcompete currently dominating variants cannot be ruled out. Our very early clinical data suggest a clinical picture in line with the typical COVID-19 illness caused by previous variants. Data are presently very preliminary, and further global monitoring of BA.2.86 and other SARS-CoV-2 variants is highly warranted."
https://www.eurosurveillance.org/content/10.2807/1560-7917.ES.2023.28.36.2300460
Hi TACT...Glad you're still out there screaming into the void.
Thought you might like to take a look at the attached report from the European Union on the outbreak of BA.2.86 in Denmark.
One sentence I found of particular interest.
"ALL (cases) aged 18 years or above had been vaccinated against COVID-19 AT LEAST three times" (emphasis mine)
ALL victims vaccinated AT LEAST 3 times.
Curious that.
https://www.eurosurveillance.org/content/10.2807/1560-7917.ES.2023.28.36.2300460
Denmark had a very high level of vaccination and with BA.2.86's level of immune evasion/suppression that isn't terribly surprising. Also you left out an important part. " with the latest vaccination 299–616 days before the BA.2.86 infection" The immunity from vaccination that long ago would have waned so vaccination status doesn't really have any bearing on the situation.
Thank you for sharing this link. I hadn't seen it yet.
Just to be clear, I meant that 'screaming into the void' comment as a complement. You are selflessly trying to alert people to the danger before them and many are skipping through the minefield blissfully unconcerned.
On to your response...I disagree with a statement you made in your response, but I'm just a dufus Anon so take this as you will. Your response "...so vaccination status doesn't really have any bearing on the situation."
NOT NECESSARILY.
I provide two references for your perusal...
Please see figure 2 in the attached study conducted by the Cleveland Clinic (figure 2 is coming up as page 21 in my browser)
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.12.17.22283625v1.full.pdf
As to why this might be happening, I'll let the reference below do the talking
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36548397/
Again, much respect for the work you're doing and the challenge your facing head-on.
Thank you for the comment and I appreciate your links and insights. Antibodies wane within 1 to 3 months so that isn't a factor here. CD8- T-cells wane within 7 to 10 months from vaccines. As far as 12 months from prior infections. Since the people infected were vaccinated over 300 to 600 days ago the antibodies and the CD8-Tcells induced by the vaccine wouldn't exist thus wouldnt have any bearing on a new infection. Is there something else I am overlooking here?
Tolerance is fine for allergens.
But a rapidly replicating pathogenic virus....not so good.
Another tolerance reference for your perusal...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10222767/
Here is another reference exploring the 'tolerance' issue.
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/11/5/991
Possibly...in the second reference provided earlier, it reports on a class switch from IgG subtype 1 to IgG Subtype 4. IgG Subtype 4 is associated with tolerance. Is repeated vaccination inducing a 'tolerance' response in the immune system? This is not unlike the process of getting allergy shots so that you can train your immune system to ignore the allergen. Here is the reference again.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36548397/
Is repeated vaccination training the immune system to ignore SARS-CoV-2?
I think the authors are quite subtle here so as not to incur the wrath of the Empire.
Anyway, I am not an immunologist so I hate to get too far ahead of my skies here.
But the more one digs into the weeds on this issue, the more troubling things become.
Keep up the wonderful work. I fear the virus may be evolving now in a dangerous direction.
Here are some notes following the quotes from this paper that I thought stood out. I do think this has an impact on people when taking the same vaccine within to short a time period. (3-6 months).This is what happened to me so I have first hand experience to pull from. The worst part is that I knew I was taking it to soon but did it anyway .I think this is likely to occur when reinfected within that time frame or infected before or after vaccination within that time frame as well. With so many people getting infected but having very few if any symptoms, lesves millions of people in a vulnerable position when taking a booster, including the latest approved today. Unfortunately, reinfections are occurring within 3 to 6 months more often to more people than vaccinations over the past year or so.
Below are the quotes, followed by notes.
1. "showing that only mRNA vaccines induced detectable and prolonged IgG4 responses until day 270."
Note: The people in the care home were vaccinated much earlier than than the 270 days so even if this was the case earlier, the antibodies would have waned by the time of the BA.2.86 infections.
2. "long-term IgG4 responses were produced by the mRNA vaccines but not by the vaccines using adenoviruses [31]."
Note: most people didnt have repeated boosters of vaccines with adenoviruses.
3. It happened with HIV and Malaria repeated vaccination. "The HIV [113] and malaria trials [115], and studies with the Pertussis vaccine informed us that repeated vaccination was linked to reduced protection from infection, and this poor response was directly related to a higher IgG4 production. Moreover, it was suggested that this class switch might contribute to breakthrough infections due to impaired fc-mediated antiviral responses."
Note: Its not just mRNA vaccines, its likely the repeated vaccination or exposure to the pathogen within a 3 to 6 month time frame.
4. " The combined immune suppression (produced by SARS-CoV-2 infection [15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22] and further enhanced by vaccination [142,143,144]) could explain a plethora of autoimmune conditions, such as cancers, re-infections, and deaths temporally associated with both."
Note: The mechanisms exist with COVID alone but in people with preexisting autoimmune conditions, the vaccine could enhance it.
"It is conceivable that the excess deaths reported in several highly COVID-19-vaccinated countries may be explained, in part, by this combined immunosuppressive effect."
Note: where did this happen? None of the well vaccinated that maintained mitigation had this happen until the mitigation protections were lifted. It is primarily COVID infections and reinfections.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10222767/
Hi TACT...Thanks for the thoughtful response...I do recall you mentioning an adverse event you personally experienced.
(I recall, at one point, it was recommended by health authorities that if 2 MONTHS had passed since your last dose, it was time for another)
This topic is so infuriatingly complex.
On a somewhat related topic...did you read that Covid antibodies appear to potentiate dengue virus type 3 through an ADE type mechanism. Good luck, Florida.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.09.08.23295136v1